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	Comments on: Dissecting Hidden Objections to Human Nature: Assortative Mating	</title>
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	<description>evolutionary theory and hunter-gatherer anthropology applied to the human animal</description>
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		<title>
		By: Julia		</title>
		<link>https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1190</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Julia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Mar 2012 19:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for these excellent analysis. 

Just seeing the trailers of these kind of movies always made me barf a little in my mouth...It&#039;s either the concept that&#039;s gross or the guy who plays the lead or both, but needless to say, I&#039;d rather not have to mini-barf not to mention it&#039;s not exactly good when kissing if a hot guy come along...

I think one aspect that hasn&#039;t been mentioned is that even when attractive (high reproductive value) women pair up with physically unattractive (low genetic mating value) men the woman is not physically attracted and often actually end up using the cuckold strategy; using one man for resources and another (more attractive and sexier) for reproduction. It&#039;s a mixed strategy that has evolved throughout time.

And while there&#039;s a 0.001-something of ugly men that manage to pair up with beautiful women through the use of money (socially-acceptable prostitution in a way) in a way assortative mating does ensure that people get what they deserve in terms of partners (i.e: ensuring ugly end up with other ugly people, physically desirables with other physically desirables etc) and that no one end up &quot;cheating the system&quot; so to speak.

Of course, I know evolution does not actually have &quot;goals&quot;. It&#039;s just another of thinking about it. Offer and demand: people go for the hottest bed partner they can get. And basically since no one wants to pair up with people of lower reproductive value, everyone ends up with someone of similar desirability.

Unfortunately these movies plays up the loser guy&#039;s delusions and actually contribute to creating creeps, mutazoids that thinks they can score with the local beauty, street harassment etc...  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for these excellent analysis. </p>
<p>Just seeing the trailers of these kind of movies always made me barf a little in my mouth&#8230;It&#8217;s either the concept that&#8217;s gross or the guy who plays the lead or both, but needless to say, I&#8217;d rather not have to mini-barf not to mention it&#8217;s not exactly good when kissing if a hot guy come along&#8230;</p>
<p>I think one aspect that hasn&#8217;t been mentioned is that even when attractive (high reproductive value) women pair up with physically unattractive (low genetic mating value) men the woman is not physically attracted and often actually end up using the cuckold strategy; using one man for resources and another (more attractive and sexier) for reproduction. It&#8217;s a mixed strategy that has evolved throughout time.</p>
<p>And while there&#8217;s a 0.001-something of ugly men that manage to pair up with beautiful women through the use of money (socially-acceptable prostitution in a way) in a way assortative mating does ensure that people get what they deserve in terms of partners (i.e: ensuring ugly end up with other ugly people, physically desirables with other physically desirables etc) and that no one end up &#8220;cheating the system&#8221; so to speak.</p>
<p>Of course, I know evolution does not actually have &#8220;goals&#8221;. It&#8217;s just another of thinking about it. Offer and demand: people go for the hottest bed partner they can get. And basically since no one wants to pair up with people of lower reproductive value, everyone ends up with someone of similar desirability.</p>
<p>Unfortunately these movies plays up the loser guy&#8217;s delusions and actually contribute to creating creeps, mutazoids that thinks they can score with the local beauty, street harassment etc&#8230;  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Danielle Meitiv		</title>
		<link>https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1189</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Danielle Meitiv]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 14:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://evolvify.com/?p=2901#comment-1189</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The issue is not whether beautiful people mate with beautiful people.  High-status people mate with each other. Over time and across societies, the characteristics that convey status might change -  i.e. what is considered beautiful, what valuables constitute wealth - but the desire to seek status is constant.

The reason why beautiful women get together with ugly but wealthy men is that in our society (and many many others throughout history) beauty conveys status to women while wealth does the same for men. In societies where intellect and learning were valued (the Soviet Union pre-break-up, Europe Jewish societies pre-20th century), those traits conveyed status on men.

Fair or not, the value of beauty for women is pretty universal, even if the standards are somewhat (but not entirely) flexible.

The flaw in these movies is not that the women go for physically unattractive men, but that they bother with men who are low-status. Why oh why would they do that to their offspring?  They wouldn&#039;t. But hey, it sells tickets - to low-status guys.
 ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue is not whether beautiful people mate with beautiful people.  High-status people mate with each other. Over time and across societies, the characteristics that convey status might change &#8211;  i.e. what is considered beautiful, what valuables constitute wealth &#8211; but the desire to seek status is constant.</p>
<p>The reason why beautiful women get together with ugly but wealthy men is that in our society (and many many others throughout history) beauty conveys status to women while wealth does the same for men. In societies where intellect and learning were valued (the Soviet Union pre-break-up, Europe Jewish societies pre-20th century), those traits conveyed status on men.</p>
<p>Fair or not, the value of beauty for women is pretty universal, even if the standards are somewhat (but not entirely) flexible.</p>
<p>The flaw in these movies is not that the women go for physically unattractive men, but that they bother with men who are low-status. Why oh why would they do that to their offspring?  They wouldn&#039;t. But hey, it sells tickets &#8211; to low-status guys.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Geoff		</title>
		<link>https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1188</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:52:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://evolvify.com/?p=2901#comment-1188</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think there&#039;s a very important element missing from this discussion: the outliers. The reality is that any man, if he is delusional enough about his value, can attract a high value woman. That is to say that female perception of value, both socially and genetically, can be short circuited by her perception of confidence and self worth.

In a pre-agricultural society, social value, genetic value, and perceived self worth would be highly correlated, which could explain why a woman might use perceived self worth, which is much harder to fake, as the primary indicator of attractiveness. Still, the reality is that in our world today where genetic value is highly disjoint from social value and in many cases self worth, we see outliers that we describe as &#034;having game.&#034;

The movie examples you described would not be popular if there was no semblance of truth in them. Selling a fantasy that totally collides with one&#039;s worldview is not a profitable endeavor. The reason they are successful is because most people know an outlier or two who give the mediocre hope of someday experiencing their fantasies. These movies are selling the idea that that outlier guy is no different from you, he just got lucky, and if you wait around long enough, you can too. The problem with most of these movies, I&#039;ll speak specifically to &#034;She&#039;s Out of my League&#034; since I&#039;ve seen it, is that the situations illustrated show the fantasy from the perspective of the chump, totally missing the outlier characteristic of delusional perception of one&#039;s own value. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there&#039;s a very important element missing from this discussion: the outliers. The reality is that any man, if he is delusional enough about his value, can attract a high value woman. That is to say that female perception of value, both socially and genetically, can be short circuited by her perception of confidence and self worth.</p>
<p>In a pre-agricultural society, social value, genetic value, and perceived self worth would be highly correlated, which could explain why a woman might use perceived self worth, which is much harder to fake, as the primary indicator of attractiveness. Still, the reality is that in our world today where genetic value is highly disjoint from social value and in many cases self worth, we see outliers that we describe as &quot;having game.&quot;</p>
<p>The movie examples you described would not be popular if there was no semblance of truth in them. Selling a fantasy that totally collides with one&#039;s worldview is not a profitable endeavor. The reason they are successful is because most people know an outlier or two who give the mediocre hope of someday experiencing their fantasies. These movies are selling the idea that that outlier guy is no different from you, he just got lucky, and if you wait around long enough, you can too. The problem with most of these movies, I&#039;ll speak specifically to &quot;She&#039;s Out of my League&quot; since I&#039;ve seen it, is that the situations illustrated show the fantasy from the perspective of the chump, totally missing the outlier characteristic of delusional perception of one&#039;s own value. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Geoff		</title>
		<link>https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1187</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://evolvify.com/?p=2901#comment-1187</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1178&quot;&gt;Andrew&lt;/a&gt;.

This strategy is in agreement with what we see in terms of female attractiveness toward men as well. During ovulation, women are attracted to physical characteristics more indicative of high testosterone individuals, and are much more likely to undertake a short term relationship with such an individual. Likewise, this is the period during which women are most likely to cheat on their boyfriends. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1178">Andrew</a>.</p>
<p>This strategy is in agreement with what we see in terms of female attractiveness toward men as well. During ovulation, women are attracted to physical characteristics more indicative of high testosterone individuals, and are much more likely to undertake a short term relationship with such an individual. Likewise, this is the period during which women are most likely to cheat on their boyfriends. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Linster		</title>
		<link>https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1186</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Linster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 21:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://evolvify.com/?p=2901#comment-1186</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Do these concepts apply to friendship as well?  Do you know of any good papers discussing &#034;assortative friendship&#034;? ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do these concepts apply to friendship as well?  Do you know of any good papers discussing &quot;assortative friendship&quot;? </p>
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		<title>
		By: ravi		</title>
		<link>https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1185</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ravi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 04:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://evolvify.com/?p=2901#comment-1185</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[this question of monogamy is sticky - and going back to your comment about us having the choice of many selves to be true to - having been in stable but open relationships (2 in the last 20 years), and watching my partners &#034;choices&#034; at the beginning  - it&#039;s clear that the selection criteria are quite convoluted - that is they do not reflect any kind of linear conscious or unconscious choices that clearly speak of these issues of looks or intelligence directly.  She chose to display many variations of her &#034;true self&#034; (as did i)and the men she chose to bed and start relations often had characters and attributes that baffled me, but obviously spoke to some selection criteria of hers.  My present relationship of 10 years with her with child reflects her choice of me as a more stable provider (perhaps - or was it the cool way i juggled fire?...) - but she could not have known my potential &#034;stability&#034;  at all given the circumstances under which we met (sexually/relationship experimental community - many partners/relationships going at once) .  I was as energetically non-monogamous as she was and while we were toying with partners that - in all candor - i would rate both above and below each of us on that scale - the nature of each of the relationships was reflective of too many variables to assign a whole lotta specifics of evolutionary choice.

Monogamy is a bogus construct - i believe that hunter-gatherer societies had hugely more varied and quite frankly, interesting &#034;arrangements&#034; than the stultified monogamous straight-jacket we&#039;re all subjected to at present. There are partners to screw and partners to father/mother your kids (oh yea - then there&#039;s MILF&#039;s too...)  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this question of monogamy is sticky &#8211; and going back to your comment about us having the choice of many selves to be true to &#8211; having been in stable but open relationships (2 in the last 20 years), and watching my partners &quot;choices&quot; at the beginning  &#8211; it&#039;s clear that the selection criteria are quite convoluted &#8211; that is they do not reflect any kind of linear conscious or unconscious choices that clearly speak of these issues of looks or intelligence directly.  She chose to display many variations of her &quot;true self&quot; (as did i)and the men she chose to bed and start relations often had characters and attributes that baffled me, but obviously spoke to some selection criteria of hers.  My present relationship of 10 years with her with child reflects her choice of me as a more stable provider (perhaps &#8211; or was it the cool way i juggled fire?&#8230;) &#8211; but she could not have known my potential &quot;stability&quot;  at all given the circumstances under which we met (sexually/relationship experimental community &#8211; many partners/relationships going at once) .  I was as energetically non-monogamous as she was and while we were toying with partners that &#8211; in all candor &#8211; i would rate both above and below each of us on that scale &#8211; the nature of each of the relationships was reflective of too many variables to assign a whole lotta specifics of evolutionary choice.</p>
<p>Monogamy is a bogus construct &#8211; i believe that hunter-gatherer societies had hugely more varied and quite frankly, interesting &quot;arrangements&quot; than the stultified monogamous straight-jacket we&#039;re all subjected to at present. There are partners to screw and partners to father/mother your kids (oh yea &#8211; then there&#039;s MILF&#039;s too&#8230;)  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Katherine		</title>
		<link>https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1184</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Katherine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 03:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://evolvify.com/?p=2901#comment-1184</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1174&quot;&gt;David Csonka&lt;/a&gt;.

win! ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1174">David Csonka</a>.</p>
<p>win! </p>
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		<title>
		By: Victoria		</title>
		<link>https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1183</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Victoria]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 01:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://evolvify.com/?p=2901#comment-1183</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1181&quot;&gt;Andrew&lt;/a&gt;.

Throw monogamy out the window if you want, but a woman can only be impregnated by one man at a time (at lengthy intervals), so it would seem logical that, slight fluctuations aside, there are probably trends in assortative mating that can be explored. The issue of ovulation is definitely an interesting one, as it brings up the issue of who a woman wants to impregnate her and who she wants (or thinks is a safe bet) as a long term parter, but in most cases do we think that a woman wants both in the same package if it&#039;s acquirable- this one does.

Greg brought up the question above of how assortative mating works- do people highest in attractive sort out in one pile and intelligence in another? What does which find most attractive and how does that vary? Are different characteristics more important for each gender? If pushed I&#039;d say resources and status are more important in the overall ranking for men, while attractiveness is more important in women (though again this probably varies by who is doing the ranking). It is unlikely to find a &#039;10&#039; in every way (Natalie Portman might be close, but she&#039;s a vegan, so I&#039;m sure that knocks her down to a 9.5), so the question becomes what if you&#039;re a 10 in looks and character, but a 2 in intelligence, and how does that compare to someone who&#039;s a 10 in looks and intelligence, but a 2 in character- it probably depends who&#039;s doing the ranking? ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1181">Andrew</a>.</p>
<p>Throw monogamy out the window if you want, but a woman can only be impregnated by one man at a time (at lengthy intervals), so it would seem logical that, slight fluctuations aside, there are probably trends in assortative mating that can be explored. The issue of ovulation is definitely an interesting one, as it brings up the issue of who a woman wants to impregnate her and who she wants (or thinks is a safe bet) as a long term parter, but in most cases do we think that a woman wants both in the same package if it&#039;s acquirable- this one does.</p>
<p>Greg brought up the question above of how assortative mating works- do people highest in attractive sort out in one pile and intelligence in another? What does which find most attractive and how does that vary? Are different characteristics more important for each gender? If pushed I&#039;d say resources and status are more important in the overall ranking for men, while attractiveness is more important in women (though again this probably varies by who is doing the ranking). It is unlikely to find a &#039;10&#039; in every way (Natalie Portman might be close, but she&#039;s a vegan, so I&#039;m sure that knocks her down to a 9.5), so the question becomes what if you&#039;re a 10 in looks and character, but a 2 in intelligence, and how does that compare to someone who&#039;s a 10 in looks and intelligence, but a 2 in character- it probably depends who&#039;s doing the ranking? </p>
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		<title>
		By: Andrew		</title>
		<link>https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1182</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 00:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://evolvify.com/?p=2901#comment-1182</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1175&quot;&gt;Jamie&lt;/a&gt;.

&#034;If you think you are a 9, going on 10 (or an 11 in David&#039;s case), there are unwritten rules that you should scale that back a bit. Likewise, at the other end of the scale, you shouldn&#039;t be too hard on yourself...&#034;

This reminded me of the following paper...

 &#039;Dissing oneself versus dissing rivals: Effects of status, personality, and sex on the short-term and long-term attractiveness of self-deprecating and other-deprecating humor.&#039; [&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.unm.edu/~psych/faculty/articles/greengross%20humor%202008.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;PDF&lt;/a&gt;]

They come at it from a different angle, but I think it&#039;s related. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1175">Jamie</a>.</p>
<p>&quot;If you think you are a 9, going on 10 (or an 11 in David&#039;s case), there are unwritten rules that you should scale that back a bit. Likewise, at the other end of the scale, you shouldn&#039;t be too hard on yourself&#8230;&quot;</p>
<p>This reminded me of the following paper&#8230;</p>
<p> &#039;Dissing oneself versus dissing rivals: Effects of status, personality, and sex on the short-term and long-term attractiveness of self-deprecating and other-deprecating humor.&#039; [<a href="http://www.unm.edu/~psych/faculty/articles/greengross%20humor%202008.pdf" rel="nofollow">PDF</a>]</p>
<p>They come at it from a different angle, but I think it&#039;s related. </p>
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		By: Andrew		</title>
		<link>https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1181</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2011 23:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://evolvify.com/?p=2901#comment-1181</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1176&quot;&gt;Victoria&lt;/a&gt;.

A lot of this can also be addressed by throwing the assumption of monogamy out the window. It&#039;s been shown from multiple angles that individual female attraction itself fluctuates. With that as a starting point, it&#039;s harder to come up with a model or algorithm. Assessments would have to also be weighted in relation to ovulation at the very least. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://evolvify.com/human-nature-assortative-mating#comment-1176">Victoria</a>.</p>
<p>A lot of this can also be addressed by throwing the assumption of monogamy out the window. It&#039;s been shown from multiple angles that individual female attraction itself fluctuates. With that as a starting point, it&#039;s harder to come up with a model or algorithm. Assessments would have to also be weighted in relation to ovulation at the very least. </p>
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